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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Aluroon wrote:
The joke here Lazarous is that for years Selah ran The Iron Siege, in which challengers attempted to kill Dispater. I don't think a single one of them ever even made it to the Iron Tower. Pretty much all of them were killed very quickly.

This is why I laughed. Ah, fond memories. I think my favorite was Merorem the Darkwind pissing on someone in the streets of Dis, miles from the Iron Tower...

IIRC, Dispater was statted out by Selah and me. He was designed to be pretty much unassailable by anything less than a Greater God and, based upon the Iron Siege results, such was the case. Indeed, I believe most Greater Gods would fail to survive an encounter with Dispater.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:27 pm 
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Lazarous wrote:
If I recall correctly, Dispater is supposed to be ... [untouchable] and to many, infallible. To say that whoever stated this entity out accomplished this, is an understatement of the highest magnitude. Whoever stated out Dispater, has essentially created an encounter so outright unbearable ...


Thanks. Sounds like the stats do what I intended them to do.

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I am a massive subscriber to the idea that "If it has statistics, it can die." and this challenge just seems like a massive spit into the eye of that philosophy.


It certainly is.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:34 am 
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Selah wrote:
Lazarous wrote:
I am a massive subscriber to the idea that "If it has statistics, it can die." and this challenge just seems like a massive spit into the eye of that philosophy.


It certainly is.


If it has stats, it can die (barring some unusual special ability). That doesn't mean you can kill it.

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KingCrazyGenius wrote:
Seems kind of strange that I would be the one to point out that murder by hit points is not in fact the only way to deal with a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:05 pm 
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Selah wrote:
It certainly is.


Two of my personal favorites were the demilich you drowned in holy water and the guy with a sphere of annihilation which was immediately used to destroy him.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:46 pm 
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:lol: I missed the demilich drowning in holy water!


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:14 pm 
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Lazarous wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Until you realize that Asmodeus can eliminate that fun little template that gives Dispater his powers.


Ah, yes. Forgot about Overlord of Hell. In my defense, Asmodeus has only come up in discussion in my group as an encounter once (and we determined that we would have more fun fighting Deities and Demigods Zeus with his Divine Splendor). Since you're here Kain, do you mind explaining how Merorem might fight optimally given his listed stat block? I feel I cannot do the character justice without going into what is the equivalent of Scry-and-Die tactics and bordering "Wizard-In-The-Sky" tier fighting.



Selah actually was the one to do the most work on Merorem's statblock, with myself being in charge of his personality, goals and other flavor.

If I recall, the statblock was somewhat of a concession to Amiel, who was infatuated with the idea of vampire archdevils, bishi archdevils and psionics. He wasn't intended to be psionic originally, but Selah did some pretty cool stuff with it all the same.

But yeah, Selah is the guy you'd want to talk to. In any game run by me, assuming you are even at the high level required to fight an archdevil, you can pretty much assume his tactics consist of 'time stop, wish and quickened wish'. Before he throws you into the Jurassic.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:08 pm 
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Aluroon wrote:
Selah wrote:
It certainly is.


Two of my personal favorites were the demilich you drowned in holy water and the guy with a sphere of annihilation which was immediately used to destroy him.


Can't remember the demilich one off the top of my head - might have been one of Witch's experiences? Or just over too quickly to sit in my brain.

It's certainly the kind of death I would have wanted to give to a demilich!

The sphere of annihilation was fun.

As much as the Iron Siege was an exercise in futility by challengers, it was a great arena for a DM to have fun in. I don't miss all the work of vetting entries before playing, but I miss running the Siege itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:10 pm 
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Kain Darkwind wrote:
Selah actually was the one to do the most work on Merorem's statblock, with myself being in charge of his personality, goals and other flavor.

If I recall, the statblock was somewhat of a concession to Amiel, who was infatuated with the idea of vampire archdevils, bishi archdevils and psionics. He wasn't intended to be psionic originally, but Selah did some pretty cool stuff with it all the same.

But yeah, Selah is the guy you'd want to talk to. In any game run by me, assuming you are even at the high level required to fight an archdevil, you can pretty much assume his tactics consist of 'time stop, wish and quickened wish'. Before he throws you into the Jurassic.


Merorem has many great combat options, but his most powerful stuff remains chicanery with time manipulation. I'd have to heavily review the stat block to be able to give a more in depth response.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:30 pm 
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Kain Darkwind wrote:
Selah actually was the one to do the most work on Merorem's statblock, with myself being in charge of his personality, goals and other flavor.

If I recall, the statblock was somewhat of a concession to Amiel, who was infatuated with the idea of vampire archdevils, bishi archdevils and psionics. He wasn't intended to be psionic originally, but Selah did some pretty cool stuff with it all the same.

But yeah, Selah is the guy you'd want to talk to. In any game run by me, assuming you are even at the high level required to fight an archdevil, you can pretty much assume his tactics consist of 'time stop, wish and quickened wish'. Before he throws you into the Jurassic.


First things first, if you are attacking an Archdevil (or anything with Wish as a SLA for that matter) without Spell Stowaway (Wish), you're expectations of victory should be reasonably low. I honestly believed you guys went with Psionics so that Merorem would have Reality Revision instead of Wish just to get around Spell Stowaway, the reality that it was entirely accidental is much more interesting. If I might attempt to improve Merorem, I would probably add Teleport Through Time as a SLA, give him 4 Contingent Simulacrums (to replicate him pulling himself from other times), and change Quicken Spell-like Ability (Destruction) to Quicken Spell-like ability (Time Stop), go in with a combination of Delayed Reality Revisions, Wishes, the Dark Winds ability, and finishing up with Temporal Mastery just to make it home in time to cuddle up by the Scrying ball and watch the Misadventures of Yorick, the Paladin and his buddy Caveman Bob (today's episode: Aggravating Archdevils is NO Adventure).

That said, I'm so overly dramatic that I put Tarquin to shame. I am not a fan of throwing someone into the Jurassic because that just doesn't seem right.

Selah wrote:
Merorem has many great combat options, but his most powerful stuff remains chicanery with time manipulation. I'd have to heavily review the stat block to be able to give a more in depth response.


I'd imagine (now that I know that nobody [at the moment] really knows for certain how Merorem would fight) he would fight like any other Archdevil, however different. Merorem's particular M.O. essentially builds in the idea of exploitation. Time Travel is just too powerful to account for under any system NOT explicitly built for them (such as the Chronomancer sourcebook of 2nd edition). It's just so powerful that the only valid threats to such an entity is another entity with Time Travel. I discussed this with my group, when we were talking about how to take down the Iron Siege, and came to the conclusion that Merorem is perhaps Dispater's greatest offensive tool. It is incredibly difficult to defend against an Archdevil traveling back in time and snapping your mother's necks before you were born.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Vile Darkness [Old Prestige classes]
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:56 pm 
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Well, keep in mind that I play PF, and Spell Stowaway doesn't exist for me or my players.

Playing Merorem in a campaign would be different than playing him in a combat. For just a combat, I would probably let him act after each person's turn, to emphasize his time shifting nature, as well as harm creatures while using time stop. Most things you would do would be undone if he didn't like them (via wish), and at the end of it all, the Jurassic. Or maybe the Precambrian, right before 70% of the world died.

The thing is, you don't have to change a lot of the rules to change the flavor. If you fail a Fort save vs a wish, by rights you are dead. (or take 10 damage per caster level, whatever). But if you die vs Merorem's wish, he went back in time and killed your mother, and that's why you are dying. Or whatever.

Campaign wise, I don't really see the point of using Merorem unless you are actively running a time travel campaign.


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