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 Post subject: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:36 pm 
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I'm as ambivalent about this as I am about BvS, perhaps more so. Suicide Squad has a lot of characters which is often a recipe for underdeveloped, stereotypical characterizations and questionable plots. Also consider that the Squad itself is filled with some very interesting characters (off the top of my head, Harley Quinn, Deadshot, and Amanda Waller, but there are a few others), you may end up really screwing them over because it spends too much time trying to make the audience feel sorry for them when, at their heart, many of these characters are quite brutal.

As for The Joker, while I'm all for Jared Leto running around shirtless and actually like the metal-capped teeth, I'm a little leery about what appears to be an All-Star Batman and Robin take on the character. Most of the better representations of the character indicate that he's quite dangerous physically, but not particularly buff and certainly not sexy...

It's clear, though, that this is part of the Man of Steel universe what with the reference to Superman and Affleck's Batman car-surfing.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:14 am 
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We have to have Sexy Joker. We've had so many other Jokers over the decades, the day we say "no" to Sexy Joker is the day we give up as a society.

The Serge I respect you but if you stay this course we shall find ourselves on opposing sides on the field of sexy battle, and that's not a place I think either of us want to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:11 pm 
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KingCrazyGenius wrote:
We have to have Sexy Joker. We've had so many other Jokers over the decades, the day we say "no" to Sexy Joker is the day we give up as a society.

The Serge I respect you but if you stay this course we shall find ourselves on opposing sides on the field of sexy battle, and that's not a place I think either of us want to be.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 4:14 pm 
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I thought this was a solid recovery for DC after the debacle that was Batman vs. Superman. Overall I'd probably rate about on par with Man of Steel as a solid 7 or 8 out of 10 overall. Perhaps a bit under Man of Steel because some of the characters aren't quite as true to their comic book history.

The plot was relatively straightforward, and anchored the film as a strength. After the chaotic blended choppy mess that was BvS's plot, having pretty clear direction on various characters' goals and objectives was a smart change of pace. Pretty early on it's apparent who is the 'bad guy' and what they want. While the Suicide Squad's own desires are less obvious on the surface, I thought the film did a decent job of explaining why various people were doing what they were doing, most of which came down to the fact that every single one of the villains in the film was a pretty flawed and damaged person.

I liked the Joker, and his side plots and appearances were a strong point in the film. His dynamic with Harley felt well executed to me.

Amanda Waller was everything I wanted out of a film representation of her, and the mid-credits stinger with her was fantastic. Really reminded me of her interactions in the comic JLU.

Batman was solid.

That said, there are issues. The plot feels like it's about four movies worth of plot squeezed into two hours. Various characters (Katana, Captains Boomerang, Killer Croc, Diablo) get shorted on screen time and backstory relative to Harley and Deadshot, the two very obvious main characters that most of the story pivots around. Deadshot himself is pretty simplified down into someone less villain and more misunderstood, while Harley is an odd inclusion on the team as a whole, and often seems to be fishing for a purpose other than filling in as an attractive female character. The character is less a representation of what she looks like now, and more a throw back to older versions of her that were more dependent on the Joker - which is fine. Even in the MCU you've got characters that diverge pretty strongly from their comic selves. The villain's end melee with the villains was pretty weirdly out of character from what we'd seen of her - and felt shoe horned in.

Ultimately what saves the film for me is that I walked out having enjoyed myself. I wasn't bored, I wasn't hung up on backstory and comic faithfulness. I wasn't just waiting on it to end. Most of the action as well done. I laughed at most of the jokes.

Overall I'd recommend it.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:04 pm 
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I had a similar outcome to Aluroon, in that I enjoyed the film, but I felt that it was greatly disjointed. A lot of motivation was lacking all across the board.

The Joker scenes, while I liked the character, felt superfluous and distracting from the actual plot. I feel they swung the pendulum too far from the stupid JLA cameos in Dawn of Justice, and they felt they needed to pack a bunch of Joker into the movie to get their money's worth on the hype. A Joker/HQ movie wouldn't be a bad thing, the characters are fine and Margot absolutely kills the role. But tagging it into Suicide Squad and it seems like they are following the worst parts of the MCU script, the parts that annoy viewers and feel like bloat.

The camaraderie, at least between everyone who wasn't Harley and Deadshot, felt off. As Serge put it elsewhere, unearned. They don't show the building of bonds between any of them.

Amanda Waller's scenes were mostly a solid performance (that reminded me of the JLU cartoon as well), with one horrific glaring exception, with an extremely weak justification.

Nothing in the film merited the killing/removal of Suicide Squad characters on Arrow.

I consider it better than any film DC's put out since Man of Steel and Nolan's Batman. Which I guess means Green Lantern, Jonah Hex and BvS. That's not a particularly high bar though.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:43 pm 
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I was underwhelmed and I went into it anticipating another disappointing movie.

The movie clearly suffered from the "blink" after the screw up that is BvS. The reshoots to make the film "lighter" (I'm assuming) didn't help the film. At least BvS doubled-down on the major issues introduced in Man of Steel. This film, by comparison, had no idea what it wanted to be.

The villain was an absolute waste. She looked nothing like the character in a case where that would have been better than another hypersexualized female (of course she had to kiss you to make you into a monster!) who behaved like a video game boss (she "reset" like three times at the end).

While some of the acting was actually pretty good (Davis, Robbie, and Smith in particular), the characterizations were off. The biggest mistake was The Joker. He doesn't care about Harley Quinn. That's part of the point of their relationships. She's an amusing distraction but that's it. His "obsession" with her is completely misplaced. Plus, he functioned more like a gang-land boss than either an evil, mass murder mastermind (my preference) or a psychotic who goes out of his way to hurt people (more like Moor's Killing Joke). The Joker could have been a viable (and arguably better) villain in this and Harley Quinn could have become part of the Squad towards the end after he abandons her. The whole him coming for her and pushing her from the helicopter...? No. And, while I liked seeing Batman in this, he -- like his nemesis -- is wasted. He would have been better sneaking along the edges of the movie trying to figure out what was going on and really representing how terrifying he is to the villains (something talked about in the marketing but poorly executed).

I could go on, but the film -- as a whole -- is about as bad as BvS... Probably worse, but for different reasons. Very little feels honest, legitimate, or earned in this movie. Essentially, the DCU is just throwing a lot of stuff and counting on the popularity of some of the characters to make it stick. And, like BvS, it will look great out the gate with opening weekend numbers. But, with terrible word-of-mouth and god-awful reviews, they will tank because they're not well crafted or even well conceived movies.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:18 pm 
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I think that once you've got a Batman who kills and brands people, you're definitely going to get a Joker that is off color as well. The DCU, as a whole, is already hard put to sell us on Suicide Squad. Their Superman is grim, brooding and destroyed easily over a billion dollars worth of property. (People are seriously worried he broke Zod's neck when he punched and threw Zod through populated buildings?) Their Batman is certifiable, absolutely less stable than the Punisher. Nakedly murderous. Suicide Squad's entire appeal is that it is villains, doing good guy stuff in a bad guy way, but any darker than the World's Finest and you're making something like child snuff porn. Or random FBI Agent snuff porn, I suppose.

And while I agree with every single one of your problems with the film, I still had fun with it, and I still say it's better than anything back to Man of Steel/Nolanverse. GL, JH, BvS. Also better than Catwoman and Steel, but that's getting much further back. Similar to Richard Pryor and Superman 3. A horrific mess, but with bright spots and enjoyable moments.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:50 pm 
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Kain Darkwind wrote:
I think that once you've got a Batman who kills and brands people, you're definitely going to get a Joker that is off color as well. The DCU, as a whole, is already hard put to sell us on Suicide Squad. Their Superman is grim, brooding and destroyed easily over a billion dollars worth of property. (People are seriously worried he broke Zod's neck when he punched and threw Zod through populated buildings?) Their Batman is certifiable, absolutely less stable than the Punisher. Nakedly murderous. Suicide Squad's entire appeal is that it is villains, doing good guy stuff in a bad guy way, but any darker than the World's Finest and you're making something like child snuff porn. Or random FBI Agent snuff porn, I suppose.

These are all excellent points and I put the blame squarely at the WB's feet. Rather than making sure folks with real superhero understanding were integrally involved in development (as with the Marvel movies and Netflix releases, and the DC television shows), WB allowed directors with little to no experience with adapting traditional comics into relatively original films to hold the reins. The only reason Zack Snyder managed to pull off films like 300 is because he didn't have to do much other than translate the source material. With Watchmen he found ways (perhaps in part because it was movie adaptation) to completely miss a lot of the nuance of the source material. The folks in charge of the DC franchises do not understand or even respect these characters... Or the fans.

Quote:
And while I agree with every single one of your problems with the film, I still had fun with it, and I still say it's better than anything back to Man of Steel/Nolanverse. GL, JH, BvS. Also better than Catwoman and Steel, but that's getting much further back. Similar to Richard Pryor and Superman 3. A horrific mess, but with bright spots and enjoyable moments.

Yes, if we compare SS and BvS to virtually every other DCU Murderverse movie, they surpass them. But I would argue that we compare these to the two other best contemporary standards of comic book movies instead: the MCU and the DC television shows (well, except for Gotham. These are two alternatives that have routinely shown how this could be done. I'm not willing to accept messes with some bright spots (and I did laugh on occasion in this movie... Harley Quinn was funny), but I'm tired of one DC Murderverse mess after another.


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 Post subject: Re: Suicide Squad
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:47 pm 
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I told you I'd be waiting!

Technically, I don't think the GL or JH movies were part of the Murderverse...it is just the three most recent movies at this point. And if by 'TV shows', you mean the CW offerings, I think they have their own struggles, but all in all offer more faithful and recognizable adaptations than the Murderverse has. If however, you mean the Timmverse, I would argue that said entity blows all comicbook adaptations out of the water, and still remains the gold standard for adapted comic material.

I said before when DC announced their Justice League plans that they were doing it backasswards, trying to get the Avengers payoff without laying the groundwork and struggling through their Incredible Hulk and Captain America: First Avenger low yield offerings that laid a firm foundation and built real excitement.

Also, if you cut out the boring parts of BvS, you have a movie that feels nearly identical to Suicide Squad. The MCU has (or had, at the beginning before we started to see producer oversight start to stifle things) distinct feels to its movies. Captain America was a period piece, the sequel a spy-thriller. Hulk was a psychological struggle. Iron Man runs on themes of technological advancement and responsibility. GotG is the train job in space. Etc.

Also, it was really glaring when I heard pieces of music from GotG in Suicide Squad. Maybe don't use the same songs as the movie you are invariably going to be compared to. Can you imagine if Deep Impact had Aerosmith's 'Don't want to miss a thing' playing in it?


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